TweetI believe miracles are part of God’s purpose and design to grow the church, but you have to contend for
them.
Miracles were a regular part of the early church, and a major reason for its rapid growth. When Jesus came to earth he preached, “Repent and believe for the kingdom of God is here.” Then he cast out demons, and healed the sick. When Jesus sent out the 12, Luke says, “he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick” (Luke 9:1-2). When Jesus sent out the 72 he said, “Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The Kingdom of God has come near to you.’”
Jesus’ message was about the Kingdom of God. Jesus demonstrated the message with power. He commissioned his disciples to preach the same message about the kingdom of God coming, and gave them authority to operate in the same power. Paul, too, demonstrated the gospel of the kingdom with power. Romans 15:17-19, “Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God. I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done – by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.”
The Apostles would not have considered the Gospel of the Kingdom fully proclaimed if it lacked power. Paul also said in 1 Corinthians 2:3-5, “I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that you faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.” Hebrews 13:8 says that, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.” Jesus hasn’t changed. The Church in Acts advanced on the power of God, and I believe God wants to do it today too. The question is why was power so important to Jesus, the apostles, and the early church?
Why did Jesus emphasize the power of God, and healing, so much?
First, the power of God, and miracles were a sign. They are often referred to as ‘signs and wonders’ in the NT. For example, after the apostles were threatened with persecution they prayed, Acts 4:30, “Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” Signs are important because they point to something. When you are driving down the street looking for a new spot, you look for signs – street signs tell you where you are, and where you are going. Miracles point to Jesus as the King of the Kingdom.
Second, God wants to demonstrate His power so our faith can rest on God’s power and not just on human arguments. That’s what Paul told the Corinthians. There is nothing wrong with apologetics. They are good. But, the power of God is more convincing. If our faith rests on someone’s persuasive argument, and someone else comes along who is more persuasive, and constructs a better argument, then our faith could be shaken. But, it is hard to argue with demonstrated power. When God heals someone, when God transforms someone, when God delivers someone from addiction or Satan’s grip, it is persuasive. In Mark 2, Jesus met a man who was paralyzed, and said to the man, “Your sins are forgiven.” The religious leaders objected to this. But, Jesus said, “Which is easier to say that your sins are forgiven, or to say rise and walk?” Then turning to the Paralyzed man, Jesus commanded him to rise and walk, so that they would know He had authority to forgive sins. Power is persuasive.
Third, miracles are important because human effort is just insufficient to advance the kingdom with velocity. God wishes that none should perish (2 Peter 3:9). We can do nothing apart from Christ (John 15:5). With our own wisdom, and machinations, and best efforts we can reach some. But, we cannot advance the kingdom of God with velocity without the power of God. What took place in the Book of Acts, multitudes coming to Christ (Acts 5:12-16), the Lord adding daily to their number those being saved (Acts 2:42-47), could not have happened without God’s power. It wasn’t human smarts. It wasn’t human programming. It wasn’t man’s best efforts. It was the power of God. I’m not against good programming, great worship, cool drama, and superb preaching – I am very much in favor of it. But, apart from Jesus’ power, all our efforts produce small impacts. We need God’s power to be displayed once again!
Photo Credit: peter pearson via Flickr
Did you know that Paul’s venture to Corinth, recorded in Acts 18, contained no record of healing miracles? In fact, he was there for a year and a half, and not a single one gets recorded.
Acts 18:4- he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks
When God spoke to Paul in Corinth, the Lord Himself mentions no miracles performed by Paul, nor does He command Paul to perform miracles.
Acts 18:9-11, “Now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid, but speak, and do not keep silent; 10 for I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city.” 11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. ”
So when Paul tells the church in Corinth, as you wrote, “I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that you faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.”, he is not talking about the miraculous healings that he did there, since the Bible records none. He’s talking about the power of the Spirit in his words, which he says were not wise or persuasive.
Stop leading people to believe the scripture says something about passages that it does not.
Hi Robbie,
Actually, I stand by what I say. There were miracles in Corinth. Let me explain. First of all, as you mentioned, Paul is there for a year and half, so we know that the brief summary in Acts doesn’t include everything that happens while he is there. It is a very brief summary.
Then, if you read Paul’s letter to the Corinthians it substantiates the fact that miracles were occuring in their midst. 1 Cor. 1:7, “You do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.” 1 Cor 12 lists the gifts – including miracles, and healing (1 Cor 12:28). So according to Paul, there was a demonstration of power and the miraculous happening in their midst.
I am not leading people to believe something that isn’t in the text, Robbie. It’s there. And may we see more of God’s power demonstrated in our midst today for the glory of our risen Savior!
Peace to you, brother,
Rob
Hi there Rob,
So glad we serve a living God whose in the business of the miraculous! He cares about us right here and right now. His supernatural power to heal is available to us if we will
just pray and believe. Faith like a mustard seed.
I get excited when I see Him changing lives around me. We need more of your Spirit…..thankyou Lord.
I am with you Rob, may we experience more of His power today so that people will come to Him and believe.
Bless you my friend,
Love in Jesus. Robyn.
Thanks, Robyn. Good to hear from you again. May God visit our churches again like He visited the early church in the book of Acts!
All God’s best to you,
Rob
Rob your message this week is saying that we need miracles today because when people see miracles they will believe. This ties into your theory that God gave man free choice (you never give a Bible verse to back that up How come?) If seeing is believing then what does Matthew 11:20 mean?
Matthew 11:20 Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent.
In the cities where MOST of Jesus’s miracles were done the people watched them and walked away still not believing. Jesus did raise the dead, he did grow limbs, make the blind see and deaf hear and he did it in the town square in front of everyone (There were tens of thousands of people in some of them and EVERYONE was healed ) He in his own words tells us people still did not believe. If they witnessed the creator of the universe make the lame walk how come if they all had the ability to believe they didn’t? You told us people will believe if they see these things but the Bible says the opposite.
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
It doesn’t say no one can come to me unless they see signs and wonders does it?
You said signs and wonders are more powerful then Preaching. Yet there are no verses telling us to seek these things because people get saved by them but we do see in Romans 10 that faith comes FROM hearing speech about Jesus. That would be Preaching right?
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
So according to the Bible Preaching is how people get saved not signs and wonders. So for reaching the lost we should raise the Preaching of the Word up above everything right?
If a person has been born again from above. God has changed his heart. Regenerated him from being an enemy of God to loving God. No one could come along with fancy speech and talk them out of the salvation that God did to them
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Jesus says he will lose no one. Could a born again Christian over power Jesus and get away from him? Why would anyone that was regenerate want to turn there back on Jesus and choose Hell? The Bible says they couldn’t and wouldn’t.
Jesus did not come to heal people. God had him do that to prove who he was to those people at that time so they would know he had God’s authority. We now have the Bible (God’s Word given once for all time) so there is no need for signs and wonders. The Bible is our sign and wonder.
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—
Jesus tells us why he came
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
I will end with the following. Jesus had a successful healing ministry as we see in verses 32-34 (below) It was so successful that more people must have come over night and they all wanted Jesus. They sent out a search party for him and when they found Jesus they told him Everyone is looking for you! That would be the ultimate in Church growth right? Masses of people wanting what you have. They are actually searching you down. There would have been many sick people in this crowd. Jesus could have healed them all. Jesus could have stayed and reached everyone in that area as they all wanted what he had BUT what did Jesus do? He walked away and left them. That is not what you would do if you were here to heal right? You would never leave people sick Would you? Jesus tells us why he came. He came to Preach not to do magic.
Mark 1:32 That evening at sundown they brought to him all who were sick or oppressed by demons. 33 And the whole city was gathered together at the door. 34 And he healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons. And he would not permit the demons to speak, because they knew him. 35 And rising very early in the morning, while it was still dark, he departed and went out to a desolate place, and there he prayed. 36 And Simon and those who were with him searched for him, 37 and they found him and said to him, “Everyone is looking for you.” 38 And he said to them, “Let us go on to the next towns, that I may preach there also, for that is why I came out.” 39 And he went throughout all Galilee, preaching in their synagogues and casting out demons.
Rob I am not looking for an argument but I just cannot sit here while you continually twist Scripture. There are people that listen to you that I love. Either you are right or the Bible is right because you are teaching something other then what the Bible says. There are many more examples if you would like me to point them out. (Please put 2 Peter 3:9 in context and you will see it is NOT talking about everyone ever just Christians So it is NOT proof God wants everyone ever saved.)
Please pick a book of the Bible and Preach verse by verse thru it and then you can’t go wrong.
God Bless
Thanks
Ray Johnson
Hi Ray,
it took me little less than 1/2 hour and 1/2 way through Acts to find the following passages, there are plenty more.
in the following passages, many people believed by these miracles with no preaching whatsoever (or at least not recorded!) And many believed as a result of both. Rob never says it must be one or the other–although it is completely evident through scripture that they can be mutually exclusive.
Rob absolutely has never said that seeing signs and wonders is required to draw near to God! (per your quote–“It doesn’t say no one can come to me unless they see signs and wonders does it?”) That is simply a false accusation.
Please read the following passages to see for yourself. This is by NO MEANS to diminish the need for and effectiveness of good, solid, Biblical preaching! These points are only in response to your opinion that healings, signs & wonders are not effective in saving souls–and also that preaching/teaching is the only Biblical way to save souls/lead people to believe in Christ.
Acts 3 [6-7] Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
What is the result? (after all the counsel’s threatening, of course.)
Acts 4 [21] So when they (the counsel) had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.
Never any preaching mentioned, only that which was “done”.
No preaching mentioned here:
Acts 5 [12-16] And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s porch. And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the
people magnified them. And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
The following people believed as a result of both hearing and seeing miracles.
Acts 8 [6-8] And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. And there was great joy in that city.
In Acts 9 Saul’s miraculous vision and miraculous affliction which was succeeded by a miraculous healing birthed his entire faith & ministry–his conversion coupled with his preaching proved to the Jews in Damascus that “Jesus is the Christ”. (Acts 9:22)
Here are 2 accounts where Peter was visiting saints & disciples, and with NO preaching (at least not recorded) healings led to faith in Christ.
Acts 9 [34-35] And Peter said unto him, “Aeneas, Jesus Christ maketh thee whole: arise, and make thy bed. And he arose immediately. And all that dwelt at Lydda and Saron saw him, and turned to the Lord.
–they turned to the Lord through seeing.
Acts 9 [41-42] And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive. And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.
I don’t believe I have to say anything to substantiate these points. I haven’t even stated any opinions. The Word speaks truth and it speaks for itself. Your reference to Romans (Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.) is out of context, this chapter is referring to ministry and how it is absolutely necessary for people who have not heard the good news to be reached. It is not teaching that Healings & Miracles cannot be an avenue or supplementary to coming to faith & believing in Christ. I would encourage you & anyone else reading to read the entire chapter and take it in context.
You stated in your post that Jesus did not come to earth to heal and used the following verse in an attempt to prove your claim: Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.” This verse does not eliminate healing as part of the ministry by any means, or indicate it was not part of His plan. It was an essential part of His ministry–and to put it bluntly–one of the most powerful and effective ways he sought after and saved the lost!
Would you please substantiate your claim regarding Healing & Miracles being dead to our time, and the Word taking their place? I have read the NT forwards and backwards and inside-out, and have never read anything that would support your theory. Please provide scriptures if you can.
Thank you for your time, Ray =)
Hello, Rebecca. I hope that you had a great Easter yesterday, and that you were as excited as I was about worship, too!
I wondered if I might take a stab at your question to Ray, but from a little bit of a different perspective. Here’s why. I actually believe that all of the gifts are for today, and I believe that miracles happen today. I even know of an overseas missionary who has witnessed them first hand! I cannot say that I have, yet, but my missions work hasn’t been going with the gospel, which, come to think of it, may not even make it missions work.
Anyway, I do also believe, though, that people can only become believers in Christ if they hear something about Him, not just witness miracles. As I think you said at one point, there are places where it is a combination of both (signs and the Word), but I believe the greater emphasis needs to be on the Word of God, rather than the signs. The Word first, on other words.
So here are the verses you used the other day with Ray (who is coming from a different school of thought on this one, which is fine), with a short reply from me on each one.
“Acts 3 [6-7] Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.”
Two verses before Acts 3 starts (Acts 2:46-47), it says the believers were continuing daily in the temple, the same temple that Peter and John are in in Acts 3. The verses in Acts 2 are simply letting us know where they were doing what the early church did, which is recorded in Acts 2:42.
“What is the result? (after all the counsel’s threatening, of course.)
Acts 4 [21] So when they (the counsel) had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.
Never any preaching mentioned, only that which was “done”.”
You are right that the council calls Peter and John out for what they had done, but what they had done was not limited to the healing. Acts 4:1-2 has Peter and John speaking, verse 4 has people believing because of the word, verse 8 has Peter launching in to another sermon, and in verse 17 and 18 they decide to tell Peter and John to stop speaking.
“No preaching mentioned here:
Acts 5 [12-16] And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s porch. And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the
people magnified them. And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.”
Solomon’s porch was part of the temple, which, as was already mentioned, was the public place they were
preaching in on a daily basis. In fact, it’s where the apostles were told to go back to in verse 19 of the same chapter even after their arrest.
“The following people believed as a result of both hearing and seeing miracles.
Acts 8 [6-8] And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. And there was great joy in that city.”
In Acts 8, you are right to say that the people heard and saw, it specifically says that they heeded because of what Philip said, not did.
“In Acts 9 Saul’s miraculous vision and miraculous affliction which was succeeded by a miraculous healing birthed his entire faith & ministry–his conversion coupled with his preaching proved to the Jews in Damascus that “Jesus is the Christ”. (Acts 9:22)”
You are right about Saul having both a miraculous vision and a miraculous affliction and a miraculous healing. But the miracles in his life, while not necessarily preceded by Jesus preaching to him (not a lot of that going on in Jesus’ words to him on the road to Damascus), Saul had heard the gospel. Remember that he was at the stoning of Stephen, which, though, lengthy, culminates with verses 51-52 of Acts 7. It is verse 58 of that same chapter that lets us know that Saul is there. Saul’s ministry here in Acts 9 was one of preaching (verse 20).
“Here are 2 accounts where Peter was visiting saints & disciples, and with NO preaching (at least not recorded) healings led to faith in Christ.
Acts 9 [34-35] And Peter said unto him, “Aeneas, Jesus Christ maketh thee whole: arise, and make thy bed. And he arose immediately. And all that dwelt at Lydda and Saron saw him, and turned to the Lord.”
When Peter goes to this place, there were already believers (saints… v,32) in Lydda. who clearly had not been healing, since Aeneas was still not healed. The fact that Peter doesn’t have to explain who Jesus Christ is tells us the guy (and probably the other people who come to faith) already knew, probably having found out from the believers who were already there. Yes, I am assuming that the believers there shared their faith, but I think that, in light of the fire of the early church, that is a safe assumption.
“Acts 9 [41-42] And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive. And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.”
Remember, again, that there were already disciples in Joppa before Peter got there. (Acts 9: 36 and Acts 9:38). The people that believed in the Lord in Joppa did not believe because of what they saw, but what they heard, as what happened to Dorcas become known. No doubt telling others what happened to Dorcas also included talking about who she was, a disciple of Jesus.
Again, Rebecca, please understand that I fully believe in all of the miracles of the Bible, and that they are all for today. I differ some in where they happen (timing wise), but not on whether they happen. However, I want to be clear on this: I do not believe that anyone can come to Christ, begin a relationship with Him, through a miracle. Romans 10:9-11 would be there verses I use for this belief. “that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”.
Getting saved does not happen through the believing of a miracle, but through believing in Jesus. There has got to be a presentation of the gospel, brief though it may be, for someone to truly come to Christ.
Putting miracles ahead of the Word is going against the command of Jesus in Mark 16:15-18 and is opposite of the follow through of that command by the early church recorded in Mark 16:19-20.
For the record, Eric, I agree people need to hear about Jesus, too. I believe in miracles – and have seen them, both oversees, and here in the US.
In another entry you mentioned people chasing signs at SSCC – I know a lot of people who are pursuing God vigorously, but none of those I know are chasing signs. If you know someone, you can talk to me about it, and I’d be happy to talk to them. But, that is not my experience.
Peace,
Rob
Hi there, Rob.
It may have been too broad of a statement, but maybe not. You would know best, I think. What I meant was that, when large crowds are attracted to a church where signs are happening, some of them tend to be coming because of the signs, because of the miracles, like Simon the sorcerer who thought he could somehow buy the Holy Spirit. He was drawn just by the miracles, it would seem.
That example does not fit exactly, but I think that churches like International House of Prayer in the midwest and Bethel, and ministries like Todd Bentleys tend to draw some people who come because of what they have heard about the signs, not what they have heard about Jesus.
I am being healed of COPD, had it for about three years,
Prayed that the Lord would heal me, and now He is.
I am taking far less medication than what I was used to, and getting better now, every day.
All Thanks and Praise goes to the “Great Physian” Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior!!!!!!!!!!
Amen, Loretta. I praise God with you!
Rob
I think God is with us always, in the church and when we are not in the church, with or without miraculous healings, signs and wonders. Our body is a temple where His Holy Spirit dwells..we walk in the Spirit. Jesus wants us to walk by faith. I don’t need a miracle to believe that He is the Son of Man as others might..I walk by faith and when He blesses me with something supernatural, it’s a bonus!
In Christ,
Mike
Thanks Rob,
I want to thank you for your commitment to encourage us to seek more of God. I’ve been a Christian for 25 years, and the last 8 years God has brought me on a journey that has opened my heart to great things. You see I was taught for many years that the God of Acts was for then and not now. That the Spirit did things back then for the purpose of launching the church and not today. I don’t want to get into a scriptural debate on this. I can only tell you what God has done. I’m reminded of the blind man in John 9 who was forced to give an account of what happened to him. After much questioning and debate the man replied,” Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”
Eight years ago, a desire for more of God was birth in my soul. I had a lot of knowledge of scripture, but there was this sense that there had to be more than what I was experiencing. If God was the same yesterday, today, and forever, then how come I wasn’t seeing it or experiencing it. So I sought after God like I never did before.
Five years ago, God called me to fast for a week to prepare for a Holy Spirit weekend. I realized during that week that even though I desired more of God, there were a lot of things that kept God at a distance. I found myself with a contrite spirit. I realized there was a block that was keeping God in my head and not my heart. To make a long story short, the Sunday of the Holy Spirit weekend I went up for prayer and I started telling Martin Sanders about my week and this block that I felt was keeping God from penetrating my heart. I remember ending with the words: “I don’t know what to do.” He stopped me right there and said: ” It’s okay it’s not for you to figure out, let’s pray.”
He prayed over me and words can not describe the sense of the Father’s love that came over me. When he was done praying, God was not done with me. As I was walking back to my seat, my friend Dana embraced me and that’s when I was fully embraced by the love of the Father. I received a baptism of the Holy Spirit that words can not describe. Charles Finney described his as waves of liquid love, waves of electricity. That is the closest that I have found. The feelings are not important. The results, however, speak for themselves.
I am not the same Christian believer I was 5 years ago. Yes I was saved and eternally secured, but now I’ve experienced the power of the Holy Spirit that has brought me to a fullness that I believe Paul prays about in Ephesians 3:14-19. You see, I know this love that surpasses knowledge. God has answered my prayer for more of Him and then some. The passion and joy that has been birth in me is indescribable. I’ve seen more effectiveness in my prayers and ministry than ever before.
I’m done with limiting God and questioning what He can and can not do. All I can say is that: ” He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And He has called me to be His witness to His love and power!”
I hope this testimony (Rev 19:10) encourages all to seek more of God.
“Now to him who by the power that is working within us is able to do far beyond all that we ask or think, to him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen” Ephesians 3:20-21
Dear Ray,
I believe in preaching. I’ve given my life to it, I have a doctorate degree in it. I love the Word of God, and I love God. It isn’t either or, Ray. I also believe in miracles. I believe in miracles because God speaks of them in His Word, and because Jesus method and message included miracles, and because I have seen them. I have been in Ecuador and seen a woman get out of wheelchair and walk. I have seen people scheduled for surgery experience a healing – a medically verifiable healing – so that surgery was no longer required.
You are right that not everyone responds to miracles, just as not everyone responds to teaching, because of the condition of the heart. But, you ignored the fact that in John 2, after Jesus performed his first miracle, the Scripture says, “What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples put their faith in him.” They put their faith in him, because he revealed his glory through the miracle of turning water to wine. Miracles were evidence of his message, Ray. They still are. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. Frankly, for the life of me, I cannot understand Christian hostility toward the power of God.
Jesus told us if we believed, we would do the works he had been doing, even greater things. (John 14:11-14). He started that by giving his slogan, “Truly, truly I tell you” – Jesus only used that slogan when he was about to tell us something that we would dismiss out of hand – because it seemed so unbelievable.
The early church demonstrated the power of God with miracles, and the kingdom of God rapidly advanced as a result. Acts 5:12-16, “The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. . . more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by evil spirits, and all of them were healed.”
I could go on, and give further Scriptural evidence that miracles were part of Jesus’ message, and part of the early church, and that they helped advanced the kingdom. It doesn’t take away from preaching. It simply was part of the evidence that authenticated the Kingdom of God that they proclaimed.
But, here’s the thing, Ray. I don’t think I will convince you. And I don’t believe you aren’t looking to have a sincere discussion. You went out and listened to the talk so that you could find what you disagreed with and write about it. You are looking for an argument, contrary to your statment. And I am not interested in arguing, Ray. I bless you. I know you personally, and I like you, Ray. We disagree on this, but I think God”s heart is big enough for both of us, and so I bless you. I bless those of you who disagree with me. I bless my friends who are dispensationalists. And I bless my friends who are Pentecostal. But, I do not want to, nor will I, combat Christians. You are not my enemy, Ray. We have a common enemy – Paul says are struggle is against the powers, and principalities that rule this world (Eph 6:12). John Wesley said, “If you love Jesus give me your hand and I can work with you.” I agree wholeheartedly.
So, here is my new policy – I welcome all who want to write on this blog, all who sincerely question or want to engage in sincere dialogue. But, if you are writing to argue, or debate theology, to convince others of your view point, or to be combative, please don’t write. That isn’t the purpose of this blog. I don’t want to spend my time in combative Christian dialogues. I want to invest my limited time and energy to advance the Kingdom of God for the glory of God.
Peace to you, Ray. I wish you God’s very best!
Rob
Well said, Rob. I have found one of the best ways to keep the naysayers away is to take the blog private. I know of another reputable blog that has done so with great effect.
Anywa, please don’t make this a place where everyone has to agree. I don’t think you will. As you said, God is big enough. But it would also help if you helped us understand some things better at times.
I know you’ve given your life to preaching. Why do you talk a lot about your “talks”, listening to “talks”, etc? Jesus talked, but Jesus talked to preach. Peter preached, talking to do so, yes, but he preached.
While I agree that signs and wonders were involved in the early church, and are still for today, it sure seems like they were meant to back up the Gospel message. It feels like we are seeking to know God more through the signs and wonders than through the Word of God. It’s God Himself who said that His Word was exalted even above His name.
Why do most people in our church not bring their Bibles to church? I know the easy answer is because all the words are on the screen, but there is a place for us to search the Bible ourselves. It’s a really dangerous precedent in any church.
No doubt that people were added to the church through signs and wonders. But if that’s what attracts them, then that is what is going to keep them. Perhaps that helps explain why the Bible says that people classified as disciples walked away from Jesus, never to follow again.
The Bible is clear. Miracles exist. Miracles happen. But the recipient or witness off a miracle, no matter how blown away by it they may be, will still find themselves a resident of hell when they die should they not put their trust in Christ, turning from sin.
I’m not saying you need to become a pulpit pounding pastor with a hellfire message, since that would not be you. It just feels like in our quest for more of God, we are missing the part that says that part of what often blocks more of God is continued sin.
Let’s remember that God’s Spirit never will contradict God’s word, since He’s the author of it. We need to stop seeking more of God through miracles, signs and wonders that are not accompianment to the gospel message, and just let them come as the gospel goes out. That’s the order of the great commission in Mark. Get the gospel out, and signs will follow.
All of the signs and miracles came as the church went, not as they all sat together in a room seeking signs.
Hi Eric,
I have been encouraging people to seek more of God. I have also continued to encourage people to walk a life of absolute devotion to God, and obey Him – no matter what. As recently as the MORE service, on April 8, I preached a message on streams of refreshing, and spoke of how sin grieves the Holy Spirit, and stops up the flow of God in our lives. In that talk, I gave people time to confess. I continue to call people to obedience, as I have done all along, and will continue to do.
However, Eric, sometimes people focus on only the negative aspects of holiness – that is, removing sin. Holiness is not merely about stopping sin, it is about a passionate, all out, fully devoted relationship with God. Jesus said the first and most important commandment was to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the famous pastor who stood up to Hitler in Nazi Germany, said, “Being a Christian is less about cautiously avoiding sin than about courageously and actively doing God’s will.”
What God most wants is for his children to have a passionate love affair with Him. When we love God with all our heart, we do not want to sin; we want to obey Him. We want to live courageous lives full out for God. That has been my message in these days. We need more of God. We need to love God with our whole hearts. We need to follow God – no matter what. God is looking for leave it all behind, no matter what followers.
Blessings to you,
Rob
As far as I can tell, and I have been there about 49 out of 52 Sundays every year since the beginning and cell during the week, the gospel has never ceased to be preached at SSCC. And God has been sought, and continues to be so.
People seem to be unduly alarmed at anyone praying for God to reveal himself with a miracle or sign. I am just glad they are seeking God. God is a fine judge of their hearts, and is quite capable of determining if their seeking has skewed more toward “power” and less toward Himself. He alone is truly an accurate judge of hearts, and He can convict hearts that are getting off track. While caution can, and should, be occasionally voiced, the desire for more of God in whatever way He chooses to give it out is a positive desire, and is looked upon by God as a good thing, I am sure. And I’m pretty sure the disciples were sitting in a room seeking God (“Wait here for the gift my Father promised,” was the command, I believe) when the Spirit of God came at Pentecost, bringing power for signs and wonders along. They then began to preach, and their preaching had great effect. But the crowd was drawn because they heard the sound of the great blowing and the men speaking in other languages, which they had ability to do because of the presence of the Holy Spirit enabling them. And I think many people “stick” who are first drawn by a sign….I have just met some of them in Senegal where they have been severely tested for their faith, and yet they remain.
Some seem to me to evaluate a faith that exists without any supernatural activity or evidence surrounding it as more “pure” or “valuable” for some reason. As if it is better to trust God through the message of the Bible alone, apart from any sense of God’s presence or evidence of His power or existence. As if it is a “weak” faith that wants communion with God. I think God is thrilled when we seek Him.
If God wants to give me the miraculous ability to preach to people so they are “cut to the heart” and brought into His Kingdom, I welcome it. If He gives me the ability to heal by His power to display His love and to open hearts to the gospel, that is great. If He prefers I serve in obscurity with little observable fruit, then I still find Him altogether lovely and worthy of my lifelong praise. HE IS THE PRIZE!! I think we all agree on that.
Hi Jen.
You are absolutely right. He is the prize, and He is the goal. We can indeed agree on that. But not everyone who seems to be seeking God really is doing so. Some people are sign seekers, and Jesus called people like that both wicked and adulterous. He didn’t stop doing signs after that, but He did let us know an important truth: sign seeking does not equal being a Christian.
God does want people who are seeking to worship Him, but He’s looking for ones who will do it both in spirit and truth (John 4). Too much truth without the spirit leads to an emotionless empty religion, but too much spirit without the truth leads to an emotional “high”, if you will.
I also think that God is thrilled when we seek Him, as you said, but I would add that God is thrilled when we seek Him the way He wants to be sought, the way He wants to be worshipped. And He cares enough about us to let us know what that does and does not involve.
I don’t doubt that you and Rob are worshipping in both ways (spirit and truth). But as great as it is to say that God will convict when people get off track, that God is the only accurate judge of people’s hearts, there is an added biblical responsibility for spiritual leadership to be aware of these things, too. God would not hold “shepherds” accountable in both the Old Testament and the New Testament if this were not so. In fact, He reserves some of His strongest words for shepherds who don’t lead well.
So your family is doing it right, and you can speak to that. And there are no doubt many in the church that this is true of as well. But there’s also many in the church who are seeking God not through a combination of His Word and His Spirit, but through filters (books, what other churches are doing, cell group sermon rehashes, and yes, even “signs” of the Spirit). All of that stuff can be set aside, and really sometimes must be, in order to find growth with the Lord. Jesus said that there are some people who receive the good news with joy (emotional response) but wind up just believing for a while (Luke 8). Just the fact that there are many in the church who are trying to grow through all of these filters is worrisome (to me). We’re cultivating a whole generation of Christians who seem to need to be spoonfed everything, who don’t know their Bibles well enough to know where a book of the Bible is (New Testament, mind you, because I can’t even tell you the order of books in the Old!), and who have no clue how to differentiate a move of the Spirit from a spiritual looking move of the flesh. But ask them about the latest sermon, or the latest book reccomendation, etc., and they’ll tell you all about it.
If Satan can transform himself in to an angel of light, give some kind of an appearance of being “Christian”, (2 Cor. 11:13-15), it comes as no surprise that God tells us that there are some who will transform themselves in to “apostles” and “ministers of righteousness”.
Since that’s true, how are we to tell, how can we discern? The answer of course is that we need to hold everything that’s happening up to the standard of God’s Word. Not a book, not a church movement, not anything but that. We need to do that with everything we see, and everything we’re taught, even by the people we trust the most, who we believe will never mislead us. We’re probably right that they won’t, but we’ve got to still hold them to that standard, especially living in the days we do, when falsehood from false teachers is going to be increasingly prevalent, as God says in many places. Taking single verses, or bits of verses, and stringing them together to make them say something that in context they are not saying is not healthy.
I could make a case, for example, from Leviticus 13:40 (about bald men being clean) and 2 Kings 2:22-24 (about God’s protection of a bald man) that God favors bald men (good news for a lot of us…I am jealous of your husband’s full head of hair!). But that would be wrong, because I am taking partial verses or verses out of context to do it. When we do this, we can make the Bible seem to say anything we want it to say.
The disciples did indeed wait for the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. But they did so because Jesus told them to, because they had never received the Holy Spirit that way before. They never did it again, never waited in a room again for the purpose of more of the Holy Spirit (the only other time in Acts that they‘re huddled together in a room is when they‘re praying for more boldness and God answers that prayer). They were always being refilled as they went, as they acted, as they moved. We can’t start building traditions or biblical doctrines based on something that happened once.
It’s so great, by the way, the miracles that you and Rob both witnessed. I find it interesting and biblical that they both happened overseas, as the gospel was going, which is exactly what Jesus said would happen in Mark’s Great Commission.
I am all for healthy, biblical moves of God’s Spirit. But the greatest move of God’s Spirit, the thing that gets even heaven itself excited, is not when someone is healed, not when there is a miracle, but when even one person comes to repentance. Of course Rob still talks about the gospel. If he stopped, more people would probably leave. Mentioning sin and repentance in is not a bad thing. But when a move of the Spirit becomes more central than the message of the Cross, when the roll of the Spirit, according to Jesus, is to always point us to Him, remind us of Him, etc., is not a good thing.
After listening to the vitriol and venom being thrown at Christians by Christians, I feel so blessed at never having attended church and therefore being free of any doctrine and theology that would stir up the emotions I have witnessed for the last three years. Everything I know, I have learned from scripture and a heavy serving of the Holy Spirit.
When this schism between those pursuing more of God and the evangelists began is beyond me and I wonder how much it must grieve Jesus. I came to Christ when I was sixty years old and I immediately became fascinated by the promises of Christ as stated in scripture. I began pursuing God for a personal relationship and continued that pursuit for over three years. I must have prayed and meditated on luke 11:9 “Ask, seek and knock” thousands of times. I experienced a “Baptism of the Spirit” and was filled with the Holy Spirit in a most powerful way. I experienced God’s love and peace and was changed in the most profound ways. By the way, in case you may believe what ocurred was a self fulfilling prophesy, I was simply chasing God for a deeper relationship and I didn’t even know such an experience as the Baptism of the Spirit was available to me.
The point I’m trying to make is that I went from an extremely quiet and shy person who wouldn’t speak if it wasn’t necessary to being obsessed with witnessing to anyone who would listen and to a great many who wouldn’t. In Acts1:8 Jesus tells the apostles”you will recieve the power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses…….”. When reading through Acts , the Baptism of the Spirit is always associated with power, testimony and service. Invariably whenever I speak to others who have had the same experience they also are obsessed with witnessing.
Was not the filling of the Holy Spirit in Acts meant to give the Apostles greater power to Evangelize. When did it become either, or? I have never heard Rob say anything of the sort. It seems to me that Rob is trying to quicken the saving of souls through revival. But regardless, God will use each of us as he sees fit and by diminishing the supernatural or evangelism we are limiting God and His sovereignity.
Rebecca I have a post into Rob that he has not put up and in it I said I would not post anymore unless I was asked too. Guess what? You asked me too. I think the easiest way for you to understand my point is if I could ask you to please answer the following question. This will make it so we can cut right to the chase and I can answer all your questions without writing a book.
I am assuming since you are here you are a born again Christian. Please tell me how that happened. Your whole life you were lost (not born again) and then one day and for the rest of eternity you are a born again Christian. You could have cared less about God and now you love him and worship him. Please walk me thru it
Thanks
Ray
PS Bo we are not the Apostles. So what is in the Bible about the Apostles is not for us. It is telling us about them not instructing us to be them. To be an Apostle you had to be taught by Jesus. See the risen Jesus and be able to do undeniable miracles anytime anyplace. There cannot be anymore Apostles.
Bo the Bible teaches we are to be a member of a local Church. We all need to be sitting under the Elders and the Preaching of the Word. Our job is to serve the Church we can’t do that if we dont go.
Hebrews 10:24
24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
Acts 2:42
The Fellowship of the Believers
42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
1 Timothy 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.
Romans 15:14
Paul the Minister to the Gentiles
14 I myself am satisfied about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able to instruct one another.
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
Hi Ray,
thank you for responding but I only asked you one question– if you could please show through scriptural evidence your theory of miracles being dead to our time and instead being replaced by the word.
I’m sorry but I am not giving my testimony at this time–it is not relevant to this. This is not about me or personal experience. It’s about the Word.
Thank you in advance =)
Dear Ray,
The point I was trying to make was that I was touched by God in a miraculous way and I didn’t seek more of Him for a personal experience. I chased Him because of the promises He made to us in scripture. I wanted Him with all my heart and soul and He met where I was after sixty years of sinning. He drenched me with His Spirit and allowed me to become the man He meant me to be when He created me. I have committed my life to Him and, with all respect, you or no one else can or will ever convince me that God has ceased to bless people with these experiences. I don’t wish this to become personal but critiquing my use of the word Apostle and dwelling on my not attending church for a great deal of my life and yet ignoring the most significant portion of my witness seems less than honest.
I’m sorry but I can’t understand how you and others can disregard God’s continued use of the Baptism of the Spirit and even worse disparage the motives of those who seek it and question the honesty of those who receive it.
With Love,
Bo
Ok Rebecca fair enough. I have a really busy day today so I will give you the short answer and then in the next day or so elaborate on it. You want to see Scriptural proof that signs and wonders are no longer needed because the Bible is sufficient. Ok here goes
The purpose of signs and wonders as stated in the Bible
They were to prove Jesus was God and that the Apostles had been given the authority of Jesus to speak for him and then write the New Testament.
2 Corinthians 12:12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—
Acts 14:3 So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
The above verses tell us the S&W were proof Jesus was God and the Apostles had his authority. Thus their writings (The Bible) had the authority of Jesus himself. This is how God built the Church at the beginning. Look at Acts 14:3 the S&W bore witness to the Word not the other way around. They pointed to God’s Word which we have in our Bible. They did have the Old Testament and all of that points to Jesus and Jesus is the Word
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Ok that is why there were S&W.
I believe your point is S&W can aid in leading people to Christ (salvation). I agree it did in the past. God used it for his specific purpose. In your first post you used examples from Acts. Do you really believe the Apostles gathered together huge crowds with their S&W and then did not Preach the Gospel to them each and every time? They would have had to because the Bible tells us there is no other way to be saved except thru the name of Jesus. It does not contradict itself.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Look at what the Bible says the people did after they became Christians. This is the picture of the New Testament Church. God kick started it with S&W
Acts 2:42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
Look what God tells us, he tells us that HE added people to the Church. They did not add themselves
Acts 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Ok so we know why there were S&W and we also know that salvation is ONLY thru the name and person of Jesus. It’s like creation. No one can be saved by just seeing creation. We can see God’s imagination, creativity, power and sense of humor in creation but nowhere in creation alone does it teach you about Jesus and without Jesus we would be lost. So we can learn about God in creation but creation does not save anyone. So evidence is not the answer.
Ok here is some of the Biblical proof I promised and as you told me you have read the NT front to back and back to front. Good job. What could be better?
Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us. (so much for Rob Bells new book eh?) 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’ ”
The rich man is begging Abraham for a miracle by sending Lazarus back from the dead to warn his brothers. Abraham tells him his brothers have Moses and the Prophets that is the Bible right? The Old Testament and he says if they will not believe the Bible they will not believe a S&W.
The Acts of the Apostles are descriptive. God wants us to know how he started the Church and that the Apostles had the authority to write the Bible. They are not pointing us forward they are pointing us back to History. How God did what he did. If S&W were for today we find some instructions on how to cast out a demon etc but there is not one single verse instructing us to do these things. Please find one and prove me wrong. If you do I will repent. What we do know we are told that is pointing forward and not backwards is
Romans 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
This is how Christians are too reach people today. The Bible is our S&W and Preaching and reading from it is where we get God’s power today.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Not trying to be a wise guy but again this does not say the Word needs anything coming along beside it for it to do it’s job. By the way in your first post you said about the verses I gave that they do not specifically eliminate the need for miracles. They do not make mention of miracles. If they were the norm they would. They also do not spell out that we should not try to fly either so that is a false argument.
Ok I have to get to work so I will finish with the following. If signs and wonders were still for today we would find instruction on how to do them. Keep in mind ALL the S&W you showed me were in Acts (in the past) so even if we did not find instructions it should be pretty clear to us that we should run away from these things today when we read Matthew 7:21-23
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
This is talking about people in the future. The future AFTER the book of Acts. Please I am not saying I know exactly who these people are. I am not accusing anyone of being them. I don’t want anyone to be them but we know they do or will exist. I do know for a fact who they are not. They are not me and they are not the people at Bethlehem Bible Church or anyone else who does not attempt to do these things. Think about this This is not even the worst person on earth (by mans standards) someone that does not even believe God exists can’t be in this group because he does not pursue S&W. Jesus calls S&W work of lawlessness. We see lawlessness is sin In John 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
If we believe the Bible IS the Word of God and it tells us that there is a group of people to come who call themselves Christians that will be cast out from Jesus on judgment day. Why in the world would a Christian pursue these things? How could the Bible NOT be sufficient enough so they would not need to chase what we are told is sin? We are told the Bible is sufficient for EVERY good work.
Rebecca you asked for Scripture to back up my claim that S&W are not for today (they are not needed) and I have given you some. I did not even get to my most important point. How’s that for a cliff hanger?
I need to get to work. If you want me to finish my thoughts please let me know. If you want me to go away and leave it at this I will. As you can tell I really enjoy spending this time in the Bible I always learn something. I am not trying to be mean. I am just trying to teach what the Bible says. If we want no controversy in our lives then we better leave our Bibles closed. If we say we are Christians and we all serve Jesus and he gave us an unchanging source of his truth we should be able to all be in agreement on the big issues. If one of us believes something contrary to the written Word it is for us to change our minds not change God’s Word.
God Bless
Thanks
Ray Johnson
Bo I have no issue with you we are brothers but I will tell you your understanding of the Baptism of the Spirit is flawed. I cannot elaborate right now but if you would like me to explain myself I will over the weekend. Once you hear what I have to say you can accept it or reject it. I myself have no authority but the Bible does. Please let me know. I don’t want to give up family time unless you want to hear what I have to say.
God Bless
Thanks
Ray
Hi Ray,
I have to laugh, we wanted to get people to interact more on the blog – all it took was a little controversy! Thanks for stirring things up a bit Ray.
Ray, your theory about signs and wanders is flawed. Miracles were done by non-apostles in Acts. Stephen & Philip (the Deacon), both were known for doing miracles. Acts 6:8, “Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people. Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue.” Note the oppostion to the miracles came from the religious. Acts 8:5-8, “Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Messiah there. When the crowds heard Philip and saw the signs he performed, they all paid close attention to what he said. With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed. So there was great joy in that city.” Even Simon, a powerful sorcerer, “followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw” (Acts 8:13). Then there is 1 Corinthians 1:7, which says that no spiritual gift was lacking among the Corinthians, and 1 Corinthians 12:28 includes in the list of gifts, healing and miracles.
Here is the thing, though, Ray. We are not going to agree. You are not going to convince me. I am not trying to convince you. I think it would be far more profitable for us to focus on what we agree on. The reality is, Ray, we agree on far more than we disagree. We agree that Jesus is the Christ. We agree that He lived a sinless life, died on the cross for our sins, and rose again conquering sin, Satan and death. We agree on the trinity. We agree that the Bible is the Word of God. We agree that the Gospel must be preached to all the world. We agree that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and that no one comes to the Father except through him. I could go on and on about what we agree on.
Christians spend too much time quibbling over what we disagree on, and the reality is, it keeps us from our mission. We both love God, we love the Word of God, we love Jesus, and we want to follow Him. Let’s agree on that, and let’s bless each other.
So, I bless you, my friend! But, I won’t engage any more in these theological debates. I would ask you kindly not to accuse me of twisting Scripture. I think that is dishonoring. I have good reasons to believe what I believe, and you have your reasons, but I am not accusing you of twisting Scripture. I disagree, but we can do so with dignity and respect. Then, let’s walk away and focus on our agreements and bless each other.
I hope you have a marvelous Easter season, Ray. I’m glad you are my brother, and that you and I will agree in Heaven on all matters! Peace to you, my friend!
Rob
Rob do I get a commission per post? I will split it and we will get rich. (just kidding)
First of all there has been no theological debate. What kind of a theological answer is I bless you? That’s nice and I do appreciate it (back at ya) but you have not shown me yet that I am wrong and you are right. One of us is wrong or we are both wrong but we are not both right.
Wouldn’t your people learn from such a debate?
So because God choose 2 special people to have the power of the Apostles (in the past while the Apostles were here) that is the norm for all time? Because Philip and Steven did miracles then EVERY believer ever can? What verse is that?
In Jude 5 Jesus killed, murdered, assassinated (whatever word you want) the Jews that did not believe after he got them out of Egypt. How come that is now not the norm for Jesus? Using your logic it would be. Does he slay people today if they don’t believe? (maybe sometimes Acts 5:1-11) If he did most of the world would be empty
Jude 5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
By the way did the above people get to exercise their free choice that you promote? Was it their choice to have God kill them and go to Hell? Could they have used their free choice to stop Jesus from killing them? Can’t Jesus do anything he wants to anyone he wants anytime he wants? If that is true and it is How can you promote free will? Just wondering.
Rob I showed you an easy example of how you are twisting Scripture in John 14. Will you go on misusing it? I also mentioned in my first post how you twist 2 Peter 3:9. I will stop accusing if you stop doing. Even your guy Eric points out to you in his post that you are piecing verses together. Do you realize how huge that statement is? And I didn’t even make that one. Amazing. This is why you are supposed to teach verse by verse and not jump around. Context Context Context
Rob I will not bother you anymore on this. I will answer Bo and Rebecca if they wish me too.
I will say this and be done
You tell us to test everything by the Bible but you yourself do not do it. If you did you could not teach what you are teaching and you would not associate with the people you endorse.
Acts is the Acts of the Apostles NOT the future acts of the New Testament Church. There are no more Apostles. Look at the honor they receive and you think you can do what they did?
Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Youtube Patricia King wine cellar in Heaven. Bill Johnson is her accountability partner. He is on her website. She is nuts.
Youtube John Crowder – Benji Johnson Bill’s wife does conferences with Crowder’s wife. He is the one that promotes toking the Ghost, meaning smoking the Holy Spirit like you would marijuana. That’s good for our young people to see eh?
Youtube Todd Bentley and Bill Johnson and you will see he is Bentley’s mentor. He just restored Bentley to ministry after Bentley was drunk during his revival meetings then cheated on his wife got divorced and remarried. He left the ministry while this went down and Johnson brought him back in just 4 MONTHS (for the money). Once a Pastor falls like that he is no longer qualified to teach. (you know that whole above reproach thing) He can be forgiven but he cannot ever be a Pastor. Bentley is the one who yells bam when he allegedly heals people and knocks them over.
People may think I am being mean but I bet they don’t when they see who you/they are partnering with. The insanity that is going on with these people is where S&W always lead. Do you really want to call Bill Johnson a brother? If you do then you are endorsing who he endorses. Do you go to Heaven to have some wine whenever you want? Patricia King does with Bill Johnson’s blessing. Do you really want that madness for your flock? Do any of them know who these people are associated with? I hope you did not know about Bill Johnson’s insane associations before now because that would be really troubling if you believe Todd Bentley is your brother in Christ like Bill Johnson does.
Please go back to the Bible.
Happy Resurrection Day
God Bless
Thanks
Ray
2 Timothy 4
Preach the Word
4 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
BTW I listen to S.Lewis Johnson, Al Mohler, Steve Lawson, John MacArthur, Mike Abendroth, RC Sproul, James White, Todd Freil, Phil Johnson to name a few. See if you can find any craziness around these men. Also google Phil Johnson and Charles Finney and you will see Finney is another guy you should run away from.
Might I just say here that in order for God to perform miracles among us…we have to first let Him out of the box into which we have so nicely packed Him away!!! God did not stop being a God of miracles just because we choose not to believe…He is still the same…”yesterday, today, forever”! Seems like the “discussion” here has gotten a bit accusatory, and quite frankly…I am offended. Rob…some day you will stand before the Lord in Heaven with a long line of people waiting to say, “Thank You” to Jesus and His Father for the marvelous, incredible, horrific sacrifice He made on our behalf. And then they will turn to you to thank you…for showing them the way and leading them there. And I will be there…proud of you!
Eric I gotta ask Do you believe Todd Bentley is a Christian and he is actually doing miracles today for the real Jesus of the Bible? God is blessing his ministry?
Hi Ray.
I am not at all comfortable with judging whether Bentley is a believer. However, I do believe he is a fraud, which has been well documented by both worldly and Christian sources. It is unfortunate that he is still in any kind of “ministry” right now. He clearly has not repented.
Eric can you be born again and a false teacher at the same time?
Ray,
I will not head in to the dangerous territory of judging someone’s salvation. I only know Bentley from his recent shenanigans, and judging by those, he is not walking with the true Christ. I have no desire or care to dig in to what his testimony of coming to Christ was, but I am guessing that he has one.
I will indulge for one minute. There is plenty of biblical evidence for people who appear to have been part of the church, but run in to serious problems with their faith.
1 Timothy 1:18- this charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
1 Corinthians 5:4- In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus
Demas- Philemon 1:23-24, 2 Timothy 4:9-10 is another example.
But that’s not the real issue, Ray. What Mr. Bentley’s eternal state is not the point. The point is that what he has done and is doing in unbiblical, has been proved to be so. Bethel still aligns themselves with him, as he is still listed as a “friend” of Bethel on their staff page. SSCC is aligned with Bethel, etc. etc. That was the point both you and I originally brought up. That is the problem that needs to be addresses, not whether someone is saved or not (although saved or not, I would be praying for Todd’s repentance).
Eric excellent answer but by calling him a fraud are you not judging his Christianity? We know him by his fruit. We are supposed to judge Christians (or anyone who claims the name) just not hypocritically. If I am sinning how do you turn me back on the right path unless you judge my behavior? Matthew 18 is all about Church discipline. A Church is not a Church without Church discipline. We all need to answer to someone and that is why we are to have Godly men (plural) as Elders of the Church. Even they need to be accountable to each other. We need to be under them as they are under Jesus. Jesus is the head of the Church and he will judge the world, we are to lovingly judge each other (Christians) not the world.
As to your last point I will quote the following verse. 1 Common Sense 2:1 If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ………….
We ARE who we affirm and align ourselves with
God Bless
Thanks
Ray
Hi Ray,
I enjoyed and agreed with all of your posts. (including the one that was removed) We have a lot in common, Ray, church-wise and family-wise. We are hurting over some of the same type situations.
Recently you made this statement, I quote you: “…that would be really troubling if you believe Todd Bentley is your brother in Christ like Bill Johnson does” Ray- you’re saying here you don’t believe T.B. is a Christian. (I might agree)
Then you made another statement, I quote you: “Bentley is the one who yells bam when he allegedly heals people and knocks them over” You’re saying here Todd Bentley is a fraud. (I do agree)
After thinking we were like minded all this time, I don’t get why you now want to start debates with Eric over T.B’s salvation, and whether he’s a fraud. I thought we were all on the same page here … What happened? Do you just like to debate?
Ray,
Nice verse. Not scripture, but nice verse. Not true, but nice verse. Satan can appear as an angel of light. He has minions who came transform into apostles of Christ and messengers of righteousness, all from 2 Cor. 11. Not everything that looks and quacks like a duck is a duck.
I agree there is a danger in who we align ourselves with. No argument here about that.
As for church discipline, each local church should be handling it’s own. Paul never told a church, say, Ephasus, to practice church discipline with the problems in the churches in Galatia, for example.
The problem is the guys like TB either have no accountability, or whoever their accountability is stinks because they’re doing nothing.
I am not judging TB’s Christianity by calling him a fraud. I am judging what he’s doing by calling him a fraud. If he were claiming to be a non-Christian pitching a tent and doing what he’s doing, I’d still call him a fraud.
You are right that as a believer, if I know you, which I do not, and know you are in sin, that I should, in love, correct you, to help you get back on track. But I would be judging what you are telling me, and your actions based on that. I would not be judging whether you actually are a Christian or not.
Matthew 18 does not apply there, by the way, unless your sin that I observed was against me., “if your brother sins against you…” etc.
Eric that verse was pretty funny eh? I cracked myself up on that one. Is there anything a guy can do to prove to you he is not a born again Christian? In Mathew 7 we are told Christians will be few and false converts will be many. Is that true or not? How is it we know the difference? By their fruits. (actions, words, deeds, works)
As far as the duck analogy goes can we agree that Jesus or his Angles would never appear as a false teacher? I agree Satan can disguise himself as an Angel of light for a period of time but we have the Bible so we can test what he says/does so we can know who he is BUT we have to judge his words and deeds to know.
If I were a financial planner and I surrounded myself with Mafia type figures and we kept getting accused/caught stealing, embezzling etc. would you invest your money with me? If you did people would think you had lost your mind right? How much worse is it to be tied in any way to a false teacher? One can cost you your money the other can cost you your eternity.
We are commanded to silence false teachers not to partner with them. How can we do that if we are unable to even judge their faith? If we are to hold firm to the word we have to judge what teachers tell us against the Scriptures. It’s our only way to know who is who.
Titus 1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. 10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.
My reference to Church discipline was in the context of we are commanded to judge fellow Christians. This is a crazy world we live in and we need to be accountable to each other so we can avoid stumbling. This is why we must be part of a local Church.
Ok one more question. Assuming we both belonged to the same Church. Are you saying that the Scripture below means that you are to come to me only if I did something directly to you? If you saw me entering a strip club you don’t think this means that you should talk to me about what you saw?
Matthew 18:15
If Your Brother Sins Against You
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
James 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Eric you seem like a solid guy I enjoy the chat.
Thanks
Ray Johnson
Ray, I totally agree with your strip club analogy, and the James passage is great to use for that. It is not that I say that Matthew 18 says it must be a sin against me, it is the God’s Word says it.
I agree with the premise. I agree that SSCC, or any church, is wrong to link itself to false teachers. Not false because you or I say they are, but false because when held up to the light of God’s Word, something doesn’t match.
As far as someone proving they’re not born again, is by their fruit we’ll know the, no doubt. I just don’t know TB well enough to know if he’s always been this way, or is this some fairly new thing going on.
It’s not his false stuff I’m concerned about, except for how it relates to SSCC. I don’t want either of us to get sidetracked from what originally caused us both to post here.
Lisa it shows what I know. I didn’t know anything I wrote was removed. Which one was it? I saved them all so I can re-post if anyone wants (just kidding) I would think that if I said something un-Biblical it should have been pointed out so we could all learn. I never used any inappropriate language and I made no threats so i guess it was taken down because the truth hurts.
Ok now to your point. I am not trying to argue with Eric. I like Eric. Eric is pretty clear in what he is saying as I always try to be BUT in Christianity today there is a big push on to never judge lest you be judged and that is not correct. The only people who need to worry about being judged are the ones with something to hide. We must not judge hypocritically (you know the speck and the log).
John 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Of course this can get taken to the extreme and I know it has but that doesn’t make it not true.
I wrote 3 posts to Eric and deleted each one because I didn’t want to come across like I was attacking him. I guess I did not do well at that and for that I am sorry. I also waited 4 days to respond to Bo because I did not want to write with the wrong attitude. It’s nice to be nice and sometimes I have to work at that (ask my family).
Here is the bottom line. You cannot do/teach the things TB does and be a Christian. Think about it when God saves a person he gives them a new nature. We do not instantly become perfect but we do become forgiven. So a baby Christian can get some things wrong. As I did, but when God opens your eyes to his truth you get a desire to learn about your Creator. We can learn about God’s power and imagination thru nature but you can only learn about God’s mind thru the Bible. You won’t find the name of Jesus in nature only the Scriptures. This is why he gives us the desire to dwell in the Word. Well one of the side effects of that is you actually learn what God says is true and what is not. God is pretty clear.
TB knows his miracles are not real or they would all be out on the sunlight. How fast would Foxnews show up if he called and said I am going to grow a new arm on a child tonight? Or if it actually happened once they would camp out forever. He knows he is a false teacher because he does it for the money just like the Bible says the false teachers will and other false teachers will affirm him because they make money. If you could heal people and you don’t march thru Children’s Hospital and empty it out you are the meanest person the world. Jesus and the Apostles healed entire cities and it was in front of EVERYONE. When he said rise and take up your mat the man did not limp out of a wheel chair and shuffle along. Emotions can make someone do that. He jumped up and walked. That is what a Biblical miracle looks like.
Christians need to contend for the truth and not let people like TB be taken serious. This is all about God’s glory not ours.
All I was after with Eric besides interesting discussion was to show it is ok when we have irrefutable DNA evidence to call a criminal a criminal.
As a Christian we should not want anyone to think that these types of people speak for the one true and living God. They are robbing him of his Glory every time they do this stuff.
I will strive to be more clear in the future.
Thanks for the heads up.
God Bless
Ray Johnson
Eric another excellent post. Boy I better never turn around in a strip club parking lot eh? Please don’t think I have any issues with you. My new goal is to be as nice as you. Who knows maybe we can be friends someday. As you can probably tell I don’t have too many around here (another joke maybe?) I just struggle wondering if someone like Bill Johnson is a Christian how can he be so blind to the obvious. Doesn’t he have youtube? I might be willing to buy him and Ipad2 if he will check out the madness.
Thanks
Ray
Ray,
You and I are absolutely on the same page on this. My point with TB is that while I am in a place to simply judge TB, I am in the place where I wish I was….which is able to follow through with it to his face. Honestly, I wish that. Nor am I in that place where I can do that with Bill Johnson, or any of the other people wrapped up in S and W. However, I am able to do that, to a greater extent, as you have, with a group much closer than CA, or Tulsa, or Toronto, or wherever else they may be. This is where I work, live , and worship. This is why I have spoken up here.
Any church’s affiliation with any of these groups, ministries, or individuals is wrong because the Bible says so. We don’t get to pick and choose what we do like about certain groups or people or ministries, and throw out the rest, just as we don’t get to do that with God’s Word either. But if we become comfortable doing it with God’s Word, we will probably do it with churches, ministries, etc., too.
Ray,
It just occurred to me that I think I know you. Bridges? If that’s not a connection to you, please ignore.
Virgils Bridges? Or do i sell steel for bridges? Either way that would be me rbjohnson111@aol.co
Hermeneutics
Oh well I guess the still small voice whispering in my head was wrong (just kidding)
Thanks
Looking forward to visiting with you this coming Sunday May8th, Please pray that my granddaughter Lindsay will come with me!!!!!
Psalm 118:24
Thank you,
Loretta Montville
Look forward to having you! Come introduce yourself to me, Loretta, love to meet you. And I pray Lindsay will be with you! Peace,
Rob